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51
Balance Discussion / Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
« Last post by ZergTriumph on December 01, 2021, 04:39:05 pm »
Because in most lobbies 4 or 5 of the terrans are absolute garbage, so the zerg can just up capacity, build tanklings and F2 the only good terran on their side.  That isn't fun for anyone.  People enjoy being able to build up an economy and get an army that can actually do something.  The problem is zerg can't.  No matter how much zerg ecos in the current game, the terrans will always come out ahead.

And nobody cares about your winrate.  This is the easiest game in SC2 to manipulate your winrate.  Just pick terran in good lobbies, zerg in noob lobbies and quit before 2:15 if things are looking bad.  You want to fix the game, count every game as a loss if you quit, regardless of how early.
52
Balance Discussion / Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
« Last post by PistachioSurprise on November 30, 2021, 08:58:11 am »
I think what people are not realizing... the problem with the game is that it's too easy for terran to comfortably expand and hold enough resources that by late game, they have massive amounts of elites(or can ion easily).

By making the early game more trying for terran... it will allow zergs a lot more freedom and control in the mid/early game.  The effect?  Terrans will have less eco all game.  And it will be easier for the Zerg to focus in 1 or 2 player.

So, instead of 3 terrans with 50+ elites in the late game... you now would have maybe

One terran stuck in base.  The other terran 2 gas.  The third terran might have 40 elites.

That is doable for a zerg.

The problem is as it stands, even forcing in a single player who is highly skilled is hard.  The problem is from the start, the terran never has any discomfort.

Now getting your initial base set up as a terran will be harder.  And it will be much easier for zergs to pick and punish certain terrans, crippling them. 

Sure, you can just nerf elites, but I think that sort of misses the point.  The point is, it's rather boring the way it is, where people have 90% win rates just sitting on 4 gasses comfortably.  This will make even getting to that "comfortable 4 gas position" much harder... and nearly impossible for all 3 terrans to do it against a skilled zerg.

The other buffs combined give the zerg greater ability to hold off attacks from multiple fronts, further allowing them to focus greater threats without getting killed by weaker players.

It seems nobody really wants this to happen though, so I'm a bit discouraged now.  I guess it's just dead.  Shame it's a fun game, with a few simple changes and an MMR system it could be awesome. 


Just so you all know I'm a guy with like 90% terran winrate, 75% zerg winrate.  I'm no noob.  I'm just tired of the late night lobbies where it's 6 experienced terrans and nobody wants zerg because they lose 100% of the time.  Not even fun anymore.

53
Balance Discussion / Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
« Last post by Ecanos on November 27, 2021, 08:19:01 pm »
well i am not completly thinking wmaster is away.
because he did Missile Wars


The " LVL Up System 5- 10 -15 - 20 -25" ... maybe there is a similar to a new Zerg Hex Zerg. That can buy faster the tech [roach with his tech automaticly in 4min or for 2k mineral or speed up 1min for 500mineral]
we know the button in Missile Wars. For me a really hard einzuschätzendes Power/speedhelp.

gl
[saw a low player game [or high Terran kill the poor zerg into Roach without extra Spawn Tar Roach]  (after much time (7min it should be half price))
54
Balance Discussion / Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
« Last post by BigNoob on November 25, 2021, 03:17:13 pm »
Community Edition was around a while back and that didn't gain as much traction. I don't see how a ZH2 would gain more.

Note the math for spires: (200 + 20) * 3 = 660. The proposed change of 250/810 would be a strict nerf: (250 + 10) * 3 = 780 < 810.

The biggest problem, as others have voiced throughout the forum and in this post, is late game. IMO If anything, allowing multiple concurrent omegas to be spawned will already go a long way in preventing high ground turtles with uncapped italis.

+1 making drones cheaper. Easier for me to force terrans into making a shock instead of reaper + farm.
55
Balance Discussion / Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
« Last post by scdpride on November 24, 2021, 12:42:03 am »
elites are extremely to effective late game, you need to figure out how to balance that.

zerg late game is garbage and adding in lag factor, zerg takes 30 second to make 1 spawner.
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Balance Discussion / Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
« Last post by Ecanos on November 21, 2021, 07:09:52 am »
The infestor maybe could need a 10-15% higher regenrate of his Energy.
With the Rest of the Game i am okay.


easy to implentated is " add Creep Energy Regen Bonus for infestor " :) [and it sound logic, more energyregen on creep:) ] (this would make the attacking infestor a bit away)


BigSpine can prepare before someone attack +200Max Hp. thats okay.
This is what the 10-12-15% better Energy regeneration will get the Spine his hp faster. (or Max Hp).


I personally would have a easy Terran, but a new map.
(by the way buffed the america players with 3 more marine, because they leave)...
balance like you want. and gameplay mostly lucky, what the situation is.
+-7min at the same Time [bruta Primals Tankling Veteran Elite, there are much different things the player do before (only farms everywhere till no place anymore, than every tech or he go Cow or Sheep Farm. or everything same time + expand + get extra gases).




yeah. i should europe update the crazy 5 Hex... [protoss optimation was we talking about, but just first of all going near crazy hex [Supply of Units Erase]
most fun is, if you use Stasis vs Terran :P
Energy Warp can use to have energy in Infestor :) Fast Infestor for your wishbuilding. picking up 2k startmoney :D and eco fast. nice zerg game. not so super slow eco like zerg hex.



The slower Eco as that slow Zerg Hex Eco... is not that cool.
i am player of 2018 tech into Ultralisk (4v1 Game) and win :)



casual player love StartSetup 3 Marine 1 or 2 Reaper at Start ;)
57
Balance Discussion / Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
« Last post by ZergTriumph on November 19, 2021, 05:59:34 pm »
You've got it completely backwards. Your proposals would buff zerg early and nerf terran early.  If you've read the posts on this forum, you would know that the game has the opposite problem: zerg is too weak late game and terran is too strong late game, especially when terran can just bunker easily.  If you want to balance this game, buff zerg late game:  torras and Omegalisk. Put a cap on zerg supply costs after a certain point, or make it an option to buy an upgrade that freezes zerg supply costs after armor 5.  Allow zerg to buy an upgrade to infestor energy generation.  Reduce torra cooldown time.  Allow zerg to make more than one omega at once.  Reduce omega and torra cost.  And eliminate capacity early game so that zerg can't just all in one terran when the others are noobs sitting in their bases doing nothing.
58
Balance Discussion / I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
« Last post by PistachioSurprise on November 19, 2021, 12:01:55 am »
I love this game, and am sad the dev stopped patching it.  I am seriously considering making Zerg Hex 2, either by changing the current Zerg Hex map, or by creating a new(but similar) map from scratch.  Trying to gauge player interest before undertaking it.

Here are the main problems that I view with the game(I'm coming from the point of view that Zerg is slightly underpowered).


 Here are my general plans to improve the game.  I will try not to change too much of the current game, as it's already a great game.  The main goal is to balance it, and make a more rewarding"ranking" system, which I think will make the game much more playable.  One note on "balance"... a big problem with balancing a game like this is that it is hard to balance both at the lowest and highest levels.  Even with a 50-50 winrate... there will still be tons of lobsided games... just like in Normal SC2 when a GM zerg plays against a Plat Terran, or vica versa.

Terran Nerfs

1.) Increase Terran Wall Build Time(by 50%)  This will be a slight nerf to make the build time increased by 50%.  It will make quickly walling off the area where your construction yard goes a BIT harder.  And it will make quickly walling off "side areas"(areas that allow you to get your 5th or 6th gas) a bit harder.  As it is right now, with 3 or 4 scvs(some people even do more), you can wall off a whole area in a manner of seconds, with little risk, little cost, and massive benefit.

2.) Increase SCV cost to 20 gas(from 10 gas) This will combine with nerf #1 to further make "walling" a bit less overpowered, and limit how quickly terrans can safely expand.  Now zergs who micro and kill scvs will be more greatly rewarded.  And pulling 5 scvs to quickly construct a wall that will give a massive advantage is more risky... you can't afford to just lose 2 scvs and shrug it off anymore.  Terrans must be more cautious with their SCV use.  They still have overpowered walls for cheap.  But the surrounding circumstances help balance things out more.

3.) Increase cost of refinery to 40 gas(from 20 gas), and refinery build to to 25 seconds(from 20 seconds) This will make refineries pay for themselves less quickly, and thus terrans have to be more careful about leaving unprotected refineries.  Right now as it is, the cost of 20 gas is way too low.  This isn't as much about balance as it is a poor design, that makes what SHOULD be a very important structure be way too cheap.  Refineries should be something that has to be defended... not something that you can just plop down willy nilly, and if the zerg doesn't happen to see it for a minute you've paid for itself.  Now the refinery will need to exist for 2 minutes(which still is pretty low) in order to pay for itself.  And the added 5 second build time makes it slightly harder to build them willy nilly.

4.) Increase Cost of "Gas Extraction One" to 200 gas(from 150 gas)  This will generally make the first gas extraction a little less OP, especially for Ion builds.  I feel this is needed to help balance the game, as well as offset some zerg nerfs(below).

NOTE: While these nerfs may not seem like too big of a deal(especially considering the buff below)... realize the goal here is to create a bottleneck in scvs.  They cost more now.  And building things takes longer(which means you will need more scvs potentially).  It will be harder for terrans to have enough scvs without spending a lot of gas on them.  "scv usage" will now be much more of a bottleneck than in the past, which will hopefully restrain terrans' ability to expand a bit.


Terran Buffs:

1.) Increase Starting Gas to 125(from 70) This will help to offset the higher cost for Refineries at the start of the game(but still make them cost more going forward).  With "stock" rules, you would build two refineries for 40, leaving you 30 to build a farm.  With the new rules(refineries cost 40 gas instead of 20, and terrans start with 110 gas instead of 80), you will still be able to make 2 refineries and 1 farm at the start and have 15 gas left over(but all refineries and scvs going forward will cost more, and take longer to build).  Terrans can still build scvs at the start to wall, but it comes at a higher cost.

Zerg Buffs

1.) Drones now cost 10 minerals(instead of 20) This will allow early game zerg to have a significant buff, and as time goes on the lower drone cost matters less and less.  It's a great way to buff early game zerg, which gives it a better ability to keep terrans in check early... without making zerg OP in late game.

2.) Make more space/more useful space for the zerg to build behind big spines.  The tiles along the cliff are very jagged, and make it hard to use efficiently.  I will try to make it more flat, and more efficient use of space, so you can more easily fit spawners there.  So many times I see zergs with units caught back there, because the terrain is so jaggedy it's hard to place spawners properly.

3.) Zerg Large Spine Crawlers start with 1800 hp(up from 1300hp).  This will slightly help to alleviate having your large spine crawlers focused down before you have time to react.  In the long term, the extra 500 hp won't matter much against elites, italis, etc.  But it will help Zergs have another few miliseconds to react, and heal their big spines with infestors when a terran sneakily tries to target one down.  I think this is one of the hardest part of playing zerg against 3 experienced terrans... if you don't react even once, you lose a big spine, and often the game. 

4.) Zerg Mineral Extractor/greater Mineral Extractor hp increased to 750/1250(from 500/750).  This will make killing the outer extractors a bit more energy/risk intensive for terrans.  And it will help to offset the increase to cost(see below under Nerfs), in terms of ion cannons.  Because (below) I made extractors more expensive, the idea of ion cannoning all of them becomes more plausible, and I don't want that to be a thing.  Giving them more HP would keep ions from being able to take out 3 rows of greater mineral extractors so easily.

Zerg Nerfs

1.) Drones now have 4 attack(instead of 5) and 25hp(instead of 30)  This is mainly to prevent "drone rushes" at the start of the game due to how much cheaper they are.  While I am fine with the idea of drone rushes, we have to make sure it isn't OP.

2.) Extractor cost now 250/810(instead of 200/660).  Similar to the terran refinery, the zerg extractor is an important building, and should be painful to lose.  With all of the nerfs to terran, increasing the cost of the extractor helps to offset some of them.  And, it makes protecting/killing the extractors outside the zerg's home base more important for terrans and zergs to consider. 


Zerg Changes(both buff and nerf)

1.) Initial Creep tumors will be moved to make them less "in the way".  Also the creep will be adjusted so that it is 1 space farther back near where the terran normally places their armory.  This will make early hydra attacks on a forward armory more difficult.  I feel considering how hard/long we've made it with these changes for terran to expand... being able to cripple them with hydras would be too OP for zerg. 

These are the initial changes I would make.  Further eventually I would tackle things like balancing zerg's units, to make them all more useful, and certain once less relatively overpowered.  Also some minor map changes like giving terrans a bit more of unbuildable space behind their command center/barracks, to store things like unused troops/scvs/batteries/etc, when you are stuck inside your base.  Things can get cluttered, and there's really no need for it.

Let me know what everyone thinks, and if they'd like to see a Zerg Hex 2?  Would you want a complete remake, or editing the current map?
59
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Economy Simulator
« Last post by guguizg on November 04, 2021, 04:35:58 pm »
Income time adjustment

How fast does the zerg economy grow? This is a important question, because spending 100 minerals at the start of the game is worth way more than spending 100 minerals in the end of the game. A simple formula to know how fast the economy grows is:

(Income today - Income yesterday)/ Income Yesterday

That will give us in % how much it has grown.

So in my code i did that, but instead of yesterday's income, i used the income growth for a spawner buiding time. That's because spawners have different building time compared to extractors, meaning that in theory spawners should be more expensive, as it takes longer for them to start yielding. So this is the graphic result:

https://imgur.com/vQXzCcg

Turns out that the economy grows a lot in a building time of 1 spawner. The results show that in 25 seconds (the building time of a slowling) the economy can grow 14%!
Then i repeated the process for the building time of a extractor and also added a moving average to make visualization easier:

https://imgur.com/fX4c5jd

The red line represents the moving average for eco growth of 1 extractor building time (20 seconds) and the green is for a slowling (25 seconds)

https://imgur.com/Whh3G1s

Now this is from a roach spawner instead of a zergling. As you can see, the difference grows because it takes 40 seconds for a roach spawner to build.

I'm not sure what happens for the curve to start decreasing, I'll investigate in the near future.

Then I multiplied the spawner true cost by 1 + growth, meaning that the spawners will start costing more than extractors and depending on the spawner, the difference should be huge, right? Well, that's what i expected. Turns out nothing changed.

I really dont understand what happened, I expected some kind of difference, but practically no effect was caused:
https://imgur.com/vwFY7YF
(yes these are 2 different lines)
https://imgur.com/bTLgJZa
(zoomed version)

I'm extremely confused at this point. I'll need to revisit some concepts. If anyone has any idea of what happened feel free to contact me. I guess that's it for today... Cya

60
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Economy Simulator
« Last post by guguizg on November 04, 2021, 03:00:09 pm »
Let's speak numbers.

Last post i said the new algorithm performs better in some situations. Let me show you graphics for income per time so you can see the difference yourselfs.

Slowlings on early game old (orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/Ykf48rY
Strikelings on early game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/g0CMSVn
Tanklings on early game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/rTt9aWG
Roaches on ealy game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/GxRKspI

Results show that the new method seems to have the upper hand in some of the spawners on the early game, specially the strikeling.

Slowlings on end game old (orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/hFVNJ2M
Strikelings on end game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/8ARAG17
Tanklings on end game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/ANTWrel
Roaches on end game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/GxRKspI

End game is really terrible on the new algorithm, as discussed in the last post, but aparently for roaches and tanklings it isn't that bad. Probably because as those spawners are "slower" to eco up with, so the difference takes longer to show up. I'm still working on it, I'll keep updating.
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