Zerg Hex Forum

Did you see what said Wmaster

"I've looked at why Roaches seem to be so lethal and I've found that Tar Roaches deal almost 400% DPS compared to Roaches"

Tar roaches do 400% damages WTF

But it is fine, let them one shot everything with more speed than striklings lol...

Maybe i am wrong but it feels like you guys don't want Roaches to be hard nerfed ?

Yeah like this right here.

The army you see in the video is not all of his units x). When the Roaches die on red they respawn really fast.

Terrans just can't do enough damages meanwhile and will loose their army pushing because Roaches speed is huge.

Btw this Zerg is a really good player. You guys don't have his mechanics.

he killed half of my army 5sec before the video left bottom side.

So you don't think walls wouldve helped defend that attack?
 
Please don't answer with a2 units should've flopped there cause not even a4 can do that. That isn't answering the question, it's avoiding the question with an entirely different discussion/point altogether.

Quote from: Mehaperson on November 18, 2020, 03:28:02 pm

Though I can see the argument being made of, "but zergs don't eco for the late game because they roach up and win games atm", to which I reply, yeah, have you seen the current game style? Zergs can roach/ravator and force terrans off low ground because terrans don't play aggressive and try to chem up and "out dps" zerg dps with wall upgrades. That's the meta

The meta is the "most effective tactics available". Because you do Roaches doesn't mean they are the meta right now. They are useless because of Firebats but are made by players because most are ultra bad lol.

However the day Firebats and chem are reworked, Roaches will become something close to the god damn nuclear bomb. This is why Speed kinda doesn't like all this patch.
If Roaches are still too strong after the nerf of Firebat, the game will be even more broken than before.

And that is why we are proposing stuff around removal/big nerf/fuse with primals for Roaches.
Btw, one of the biggest problem of Roaches is also how much energy they drain. Terran just can't push it at all. 3 or 5 firebats as tank will not change that x)

To resume Roaches should be the ultimate trump card for all-in Zerg but cannot be a huge t1/t2 counter if you want the game to work and pliz just read my previous posts (Main problems in Zerg hex in balance section), i feel like i'm repeating my point way too much. The same questions come again and again without stop.

Gonna go ahead and add some nabs flare here and say

Imagine contradicting yourself and being confident about it.

From your post:
"With the patch, roaches became overpowered resulting in lot of problems:
-What was a mistake of low lvl players became the meta-game.
-Roaches are actually now stronger than primals, ultra and even bruts (bruts always were too cost inefficient).

What is the result ? Zergs are now strong early-game, godlike mid-game, and weak late-game. Primals, ultralisk and bruts are not played anymore by 99% of players."

So from your previous post, and you clearly stating what wasn't meta game before is now meta game. Gonna go ahead and say that you agree with me. Unless you'd like to change your position on this here, then we'll go ahead and agree to disagree.

>Btw, one of the biggest problem of Roaches is also how much energy they drain. Terran just can't push it at all. 3 or 5 firebats as tank will not change that x)

Why would it stop at 3-5? Why wouldn't you get 10-20 along with the 30-40 t1/2 marines? If you have low ground and pushed aggressively and roaches are now starting to come out with zerg low eco, what's stopping you from teaching up and getting an army like that?

Also among other things since it doesn't seem blaringly obvious to you. To say remove/nerf roaches and not agree that roaches are supposed to stop t1 pushes like you also said in your post, "Roaches purpose is to delay the t1 marines push." Aka agreeing with speed is another contradiction to yourself by saying roaches can't be a huge t1/t2 counter.

With that I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that at least speed knows what he wants, evem if he has less than stellar social skills, where as you are kinda just agreeing where you see fit instead of holding a position.

I said my points and it seems like neither you nor speed are capable of addressing all of mine. So with that I'll just let the patch hit and see what happens

Have a nice day.

... Not a fan tbh.

As much as I hated the chemical, if you wanted to win roach players, getting 3 chemicals and auto-casting walls was the best way.

10HP removed from the tar roach... 20% of its HP... not gonna do anything.

Roaches with tar rush on creep, with speed upgrades, too, you cannot move forward as terran unless you have RIDICOULUS DPS output. I wouldn't get a firebat for 30 gas, let alone 50. If it didn't require T2 it could be a nice (OP) counter to the constant stream of harrassment so many zerg love to send to someone.

I'm gonna talk about the issue with roach again.

Zerg all-in by building full spawners and upgrading capacity before getting any eco, then, if some terran somehow manages to hang on to his low ground, build an army and push, even with the shittiest eco zerg can afford Armor 1 & 2, and from the spawners they lose they gain supply to build roach... Yeah, it FURTHER demolishes their already shitty eco, but the terrans don't have good eco either from the early game allin.

For zerg this is a great patch! Stupid OP firebat is gone (the one where 4-5 can take a big spine), chemical plant is gone, so you will not see 20 lvl walls at 30 minutes, and zerg's go-to unit, the roach, only got a 20% HP nerf on their little minion.

Even for my zerg (I rather quit the game than making roaches), this patch is good, with the stupid firebat gone and chemical plant gone, only italis is an issue for the ultralisk, so I feel confident I can go for ultra tech instead of brutalisk like I did before.

I consider myself as an above average zerg, and even I miss transfusions regularly, don't think it will be too big of an issue for me. Though the design probably isn't too great I guess.

Just remove roach altogether. Zerg has to make eco for primal, if they don't do so, they will die before reaching it. For roach zerg doesn't have to make eco, so they will just all-in into all-in like they do now and, as much as I despice the current firebat, it's nice when someone rolls over those noobs with a ball of firebats. Transitioning from T1 into chemical plants is boring as ****, but at least it's a win. If terran don't improve I see myself losing games to zerg that all-in, then all-in again and it's not a game I want to play.

I prefer the current patch over this proposal, ideally I wanted a patch where you need to win with T1, but with the insufficient roach nerf I don't feel like you can win with T1, and your fallback options are gone, too.

I think even if T1 was the only way to win, most people would still AFK, I think sadly even I failed to properly evaluate this point when discussing future changes.

There is too many bad players, maybe try buffing their skill?

Bunkers are actually easy to break for zerg if they eco well, and if italis was gone you could do so much with hydras, but instead you propose to take away the defenders 8% dmg reduction? Yeah, it will make it easier for the zerg... in a no brain way, this is exactly what we didn't want! Or I didn't want at least.

I've said this before on heXnab discord, I was expecting too much and I already knew I was going to get disappointed. Here we are :/

>Roaches with tar rush on creep, with speed upgrades, too, you cannot move forward as Terran unless you have RIDICULOUS DPS output. I wouldn't get a firebat for 30 gas, let alone 50. If it didn't require T2 it could be a nice (OP) counter to the constant stream of harassment so many Zerg love to send to someone.

Right, so he addressed this by reducing tar roach hp and adding light armour to them making firebats a great way to reduce surface area of your marines (which normally gets them killed to begin with), and by having the +15 to light armour bonus. To my understanding, as soon as a roach dies it immediately burns to ash instead of behaving as an additional or replacement roach. As far as the you not wanting to build firebats thing, I can't convince you to do it, if you don't feel like you want it then you don't want it. In my opinion at least, that isn't a good hill to stand on if you're trying to make a point.

>For Zerg this is a great patch! Stupid OP firebat is gone (the one where 4-5 can take a big spine), chemical plant is gone, so you will not see 20 lvl walls at 30 minutes, and zerg's go-to unit, the roach, only got a 20% HP nerf on their little minion.

Well, since walls gain 2x armour per upgrade, level 10 walls are pretty much level 20 walls, which you can get sooner than 30 minutes I believe, maybe, depends on what your gas income is and what you spend it on.

>Zerg all-in by building full spawners and upgrading capacity before getting any eco, then, if some terran somehow manages to hang on to his low ground, build an army and push, even with the shittiest eco zerg can afford Armor 1 & 2, and from the spawners they lose they gain supply to build roach... Yeah, it FURTHER demolishes their already shitty eco, but the terrans don't have good eco either from the early game allin.

Why is this a problem? From my understanding, if a Terran does some how hold onto his low ground while the other two bunker in with 1 gas, then the zerg can't press due to the lack of eco which drives the game towards the direction of, the low ground terran can either aggress vs the zerg solo with the energy support of his peers, or he can start going towards ion along with them. What makes RTS's fun to begin with is the multitude of different strategies you can play, not speed run if it doesn't work go next.

>I prefer the current patch over this proposal, ideally I wanted a patch where you need to win with T1, but with the insufficient roach nerf I don't feel like you can win with T1, and your fallback options are gone, too.

I disagree seeing as how you can still win the game with t1s with roaches being how they are currently, nothings changed in the regard except roaches are a little less threatening with mini roach hps being less. As for the fall back plan, I don't think zerg has enough dps output with armour 2 to beat increased regen/double armour up walls without sacrificing even further eco for attack upgrades, which sort of gives other terran time to, you guessed it, ion for the win.

>Bunkers are actually easy to break for zerg if they eco well, and if italis was gone you could do so much with hydras, but instead you propose to take away the defenders 8% dmg reduction? Yeah, it will make it easier for the zerg... in a no brain way, this is exactly what we didn't want! Or I didn't want at least.

"Bunkers are actually easy to break for zerg if they eco well" is like saying, "Terran can kill zerg hive really easily if they eco well". The objective here is for both sides to prevent this as far as im aware, so like, whats your point here?

I disagree with the no brain statement here as well, simply because the purpose of the zerg is to out eco and over power in the late game, which goes true to their lore/name "zerg". If the big brain statement here was to use hydras/infestors healing torras/spores, then that sort of takes away from the late game steam rolling everything i'd say. Like I said earlier, it'll be good early/early mid/mid game, where attack ups aren't that high and armour values+regen+repairs can keep up. At some point during the late game, the zerg needs to just walk over them or nothings changed patch or no patch.

Though I can see the argument being made of, "but zergs don't eco for the late game because they roach up and win games atm", to which I reply, yeah, have you seen the current game style? Zergs can roach/ravator and force terrans off low ground because terrans don't play aggressive and try to chem up and "out dps" zerg dps with wall upgrades. That's the meta and it falls short cause players don't know what to do after they get chems, most of the time they just start stacking italis and tech towards elites rather than just ioning. As you stated earlier one guy flamed you for ecoing instead of roaching up and losing to firebats. That's meta atm, and you break that meta by out ecoing their eco and using infestors to infuse/slow down at the big spine (sort of what like adam has been saying), which is hilarious btw.

All in all, the sort of feel that I get from your post leans towards a simpler homogeneous game (which you've already stated in another forum thread). However, I disagree with this as well. Complexity is a good thing, over complexity and over simplicity are not. Balance in all things amirite? The key here is to make it so the complexity is met with a proper learning curve, rather than one that's too steep, which can be challenging especially if your audience is lacking deductive reasoning and the will to get beaten multiple times to learn the game(which is why you see RTS's falling out of the market as of late because FPS are very straight forward, shoot the other guy before he shoots you) and even then you see newer FPS's release with complexity such as perks, talents, ultras, skills, etc.

These are all obviously just my opinion and if people truly feel roaches are too strong, then remove/ nerf them and let primals serve the role, and since the firebat changes seem to address the roaches, with their removal/nerfs, remove firebats as well since they will effectively no longer serve a purpose since nerfs will allow t1 marines to fight them without the firebats.

Explain to me why a tier 1 basic unit should compete vs 2 armour tiers of units again?

Be nice to hear what his current thoughts are based on the balance posts and what/if he wants to do something with them.

From what I understand it's the laser beam animation that causes lag for most players where as asset count only becomes an issue for the late phase of games. I'm also unaware if putting a unit cap in place and then using a weighted system to determine which unit gets to exist and which one is removed exists or not.

I think a good place to start would be looking at the laser beam animation and asset count would probably be secondary to that at least in my opinion.

That's a great idea moving firebat tech to armoury.

If you really want to get creative with it as well you can make it so marines upgrade into firebats like a weapons exchange or class change. That'd stream line armoury to serve it's offensive purpose and players would have to make marines to get firebats allowing for army mix.

Obviously this suggestion can be built upon as it's just an idea.