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Messages - Avion

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Recent Patch Notes / Re: Patch Notes 4.3
« on: December 03, 2020, 09:11:58 pm »
@bazz

I understand your frustration if the game isn't going in the direction you wanted. But insinuating that wmaster is taking only our advice and thus promoting an idea of the game that is supposed to make only heXnabs happy is plain silly and just not fair. We've been involved in suggesting stuff back before the patch that added firebats + italis in the first place came out, sharing our ideas and concerns. Guess what, wmaster went ahead and put these units among other things into the game regardless of our concern and he is absolutely right to do so.

There's constructive criticism and looking and evaluating certain things about the game and then there's trying to push your own playstyle. The fact you argue the way you do kind of shows that you're actually doing what you accuse us of doing. You've lost an option that you liked and now instead of trying to keep improving from where we are you simply go down the "i'm sitting back, this is hopeless" route. All we did was showcase (very clearly, feel free to check out the replays) that in the last version firebats + chemplants simply didn't make sense and were ridiculously easy to abuse for anyone. I think wmaster addressed the issue very well and by no means was that some kind of copy paste from our suggestions. We've always more relied on showcasing and demonstrating what doesn't work and letting wmaster come up with solutions. Same thing happened with this patch and i think that's how it should be. Doesn't mean we can't all contribute with suggestions of how we think certain things may be addressed, but it should be obvious to anyone that wmaster as the dev makes his own decisions on how to find and implement said solutions.

Take the italis + firebat version. I can safely say that at least the heXnab members that were members before this version of zhex were not too thrilled with it from the start. Yet we still kept playing and trying to figure out ways on how to improve it and finding where the actual problems were. Maybe you should do the same instead of already giving up after there has been not even a handful of new versions trying to address problems that were clearly there.

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Balance Discussion / Re: Issue with Zerg
« on: December 03, 2020, 08:50:25 pm »
While speed is applying his signature cheekiness to the discussion as expected, i have to say that he does have a point. People seem to highly overestimate zerg's "weakness" in the current meta. The fact is that while i do agree they should be buffed somewhat, it's nowhere near as bad as some people make it out to be.

I don't know the game you're referring to, but if najdorf was playing with a noob, that would be an entirely different story. I'd be happy to invite you +2 other terrans of your choosing to a round while speed and me (or someone else who is actually good as zerg) play against your team.
The fact is, since the last patch i have yet to lose a game as either terran or zerg.

Just like terran, zerg never has been and shouldn't be an easy win. you still need to macro well, harass, synergize with your ally etc. if you do that, the game is by no means easy for terrans, also if it's 3 decent players.

Just to clarify, me inviting you to set up such a game isn't meant as trashtalk, but to actually test where things are at and figuring out better what needs to be done and how much of a buff zerg might need.

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Balance Discussion / Re: Issue with Zerg
« on: December 03, 2020, 02:28:45 pm »
Hi Statistics,

great post overall and i think you're addressing an important issue. First of all, thanks a ton wmaster, i really feel this patch was a huge step in the right direction. I'm really enjoying it, the changes you made were clearly well thought out and considerate.

On to your argument: I agree to some extent with what you're saying about zerg not being able to express their skill enough, though i feel the root of the problem is a different one that isn't so much about options. What you're addressing here i believe has to do with a perceived weakness of zerg once terran has established a base and decent macro, going into midgame. (outer circle starting to get cleaned, big spines starting to get threatened)

It seems at this stage that whatever zerg does (micro etc) has close to zero effect on any terran that has a decent stack, let alone several. (this is what roaches were doing to some extent in the previous patch)

Before resorting to adding new units to adjust the balance during that stage though, i'd suggest "speeding" up zerg slightly by adjusting supply cost progression. I believe this would result in zerg automatically gaining more options, because of a general potential increase in unit count at that stage and less necessity of putting everything into macro to keep up.
It would delay terran further due to more pressure allowing more time for zerg to transition into higher tech/having the extra eco for hydras earlier for defense, or sipmly massing more units, trying to find the perfect spot to tech up while keeping terrans in check.

I would rather see such an adjustment first and see how it changes the overall tune of the game than trying to add some new balance with units to be honest, as i'm worried that would shift the focus from the overall strategic layer too much to using these units, especially for weaker players, thus having the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.

Overall this would crank up the doomsday counter for terran somewhat and punish idleness from their side even further, especially when experiencing low focus. It also allows to weaken the effect of very strong players better, as they will experience a heavier focus earlier, forcing them to go more unit/generator heavy instead of fully macroing longer.

Once we see how that affects the overall game, i'd say you can consider adding more options for zerg to defend if it still feels like there's too few options.

I have to somewhat disagree on your point that there isn't much to distinguish a top zerg from a low skill zerg though in the current meta, at it's core the game is highly strategic, hitting the right timings, transitioning at the right time, being FASTER with everything you do, these things make all the difference.

Midgame is better fixed by adjusting the macro curves, rather than by adding units to make up for one side being too powerful. Options wise such an ajdustment opens up a lot of yet unexplored options for zerg, because they get more leeway eco wise. Possibly earlier hydra attacks (which may later be used for defense as well), spreading creep etc.

Please don't see this post as me being opposed to your proposed changes generally, i just feel the primary issue that should be adressed is a different one meta wise and only once that is adjusted should we look at additional options and see what might be necessary or not in the end.

Kind regards to all,

Avion

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Balance Discussion / Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
« on: November 08, 2020, 12:15:51 am »
Hi all!

First of all, after a longer hiatus (due to work reasons) i came back not too long ago and have played zhex again regularly ever since. Still loving the game, but as mentioned there is clearly some issues with it's current state.

I'll try to adress the firebat/strategy issue on a more general level:

The problem regarding t1 marine pushing vs firebat play isn't about us heXnabs wanting to reduce options, it's that one of the options (firebats) is stupidly simple to execute and basically impossible to counter by zerg unless the terran is noob. The only explanation why newer players feel firebats aren't imbalanced is that they have a chance to win with them (or get a close game) even if they're magnitudes worse than their zerg counterparts. That's just bad balance. It might make the game more accessible for newer players, because it gives very unexperienced/bad players a fighting chance to beat zerg that are much better than them, but that isn't supposed to happen.
To get to the point, if i play t1 rines and try really hard, i might do enough damage to zerg to win right away or set myself and the team up for a fighting chance in the late game, depending on how well my allies do. THAT'S what's supposed to happen. Even now t1 is nowhere near an auto win against similiarly skilled zerg players. IF however i go for firebats, i can AFK, have about 40apm instead of the average 150-170 i play at and still A-move win at the 25 minute mark.
You guys who are arguing chemplant-firebats aren't incredibly OP just have no clue what it plays like in the hands of a good player.

Part of the problem is that everything you need for the chem plant firebat build fits perfectly into a completely defensive playstyle. you simply don't have to take any risks to make it work consistently every game.

On that note, i would like to emphasize that i feel any good RTS game shouldn't be balanced around giving noobs a fighting chance against far superior opponents. The point is to get better, not to have the option to phone it in.
if one terran plays 3 times faster than an ally or the zerg player, that SHOULD mean something.

Similiarly, if you guys think t1 pushing is super easy and one dimensional, you really don't get the depth of strategy involved in doing it well. It's not a "build" that doesn't change like the chemplant firebat thing, where you can literally do the exact same thing every single time. When playing aggressively (as should be the aim of at least the early and midgame in my opinion, however that is executed) you have to continuously adjust what you're doing based on what zerg does, how they tech up, macro and switch focus. it'S really dynamic and far from easy to do.
The balance of zerg hex to me is a constant back and forth, trying to make life for the opponent more difficult:

-can i macro?
-should i make more units?
-should i tech? should i push?
-when should i transition to something else?
-should i do a weaker push that gives me the option to have  a stronger setup for lategame OR should i try a harder risky push, to try and do some damage, delaying the zerg and thus giving the team different options for late game?

this is the core of the strategy for me and it shouldn't be easy for zerg or terran. there is no such thing as a clear-cut t1 strategy. those questions have to be asked and answered continuously based on how the game is going, what your allies are doing and what the opponents are doing. this is not easy to do well and it shouldn't be. In getting good with this type of strategy lies the skill of zerg hex to me and the reason i've really enjoyed this game for such a long time. it's a learning curve that never really ends, it's always possible to get better.

The fact we now have  the option for even noobs to follow a simple build and have a low skill game ending option just takes away from what it is that truly makes this game great and that's a pity. I'm not entirely opposed to having a unit like firebats as an option. what i have a problem with is that the strategy to make use of them requires zero skill and  can be performed without risk pretty much any game. being able to make them should force you to take risks and/or apply actual game strategy to be pulled off successfully. Whatever that looks like. Having the chem plant upgrade tied to having at least a buggo could be an option, as it would require you to play aggressive early on, while still giving you the option for a firebat transition, but at a stage that makes more sense. i'm not sure that would solve much though to be honest.

Kind regards to all,

Avion



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