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Messages - guguizg

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1
Balance Discussion / Re: Zerg response time
« on: October 27, 2022, 07:29:49 pm »
Without actual overlords, zerg has no ability to scout terrans. Once terrans get a wall secured, zerg has no idea what the terrans are doing in terms of eco, tech or army. Zerg won't know when a terran attack is coming until it actually hits.

This is completely untrue. There are several indicators of the terran's activity if you are fast and careful enough to notice, which I personally am not lol.
- Tech sctructures: You can see when the terran builds a yard or when they get gas extraction, meaning that they are ecoing. Also the wall investment is something that delays the terran, such as additional wall layers, defenders, unified armor, etc. Building an armory indicates they are going to push. The order in which the player builds those structures matters: armory before = aggressive, yard first = economical/defensive (generally)
- Batteries: Acquiring more batteries when there is not enough troops to depleate marine's energy indicates they might use them for a push soon
- Marine upgrades: Shattering is the easiest upgrade to spot, as there is a visual indicator. Pen laser is needed to destroy the buildings, and that can also be seen if you click the marines and see if the atk dmg is 3 or 4.
- Number of units: It's very rare to see terrans hiding their units. Usually they just leave all the marines on the armory, meaning that you can see how much the army is growing.
- Basic knowledge of timings: If there was no pressure on a terran during the game and its 15 minutes you should expect them to push. There are predictable push timings for terran, so roaches should be a preamptive measure not a palliative one

There are other indicators too, these are just a few. The problem is not that it's impossible to acquire information, it's just difficult and takes important apm

Zerg is imbalanced, but this isn't the problem or the solution

2
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Hex Science
« on: July 10, 2022, 04:01:45 am »
How did you get to those numbers?

3
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Hex Science
« on: June 25, 2022, 07:48:09 am »
Comparing solo zerg vs duo zerg

This is a hot topic. There is no discussion that if the zerg has perfect micro (I know it's impossible), it's objectively better to have a solo zerg compared to a duo zerg. The way to go around that as duo zerg is eco sharing - one zerg sends all their minerals to the other so they complete a full supply and then it goes the other way around, pretty much simulating a solo zerg experience. Altough that is better for the economy, it takes up a lot of APM and coordenation which is a great cost, but how better is it?

Using my simulation code, I made a duo zerg variant. Considering that the zerg does what is best for the team (supportive), and not only for himself (individualistic), the results show that in the long run being solo/sharing eco perfectly can be 18% more efficient. It's important to note that results on the early game are a little different, ranging from around 10-15%. I plan to improve on the what-to-build algorithm, and if I do, I'll remake this post, as it might impact the results, for now, these are Heuristic results. Here is the graph to visualize the difference:

The y axis is the result of the division of the solo zerg income by the duo zerg income and x is time in seconds
https://imgur.com/rHEhMxh

In case you want to understand more about what I ment by individualistic, here it goes. When it's 2 zergs, adding a extractor will only benefit you, but adding a spawner will benefit both you and your teammate. If you don't consider the positive externality of building a spawner (increases your teammate economy), both zergs get way more extractors than it's optimal to. Here are the results for a individualistic zerg.

https://imgur.com/zSue9Fr

4
This is what happens:

Starting supply cost X income* at 10 minutes X income* at 20 minutes

900 2630 13800
800 2860 16000
700 3044 18736
600 3310 22675
500 3663 27217
400 4021 33664
300 4552 42280
200 5252 52480
100 6105 67888

*considers a 'perfect economy' build, doesn't spend minerals in anything that is not optimal economically. The code used is attached

5
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Economy Simulator
« on: June 24, 2022, 06:38:40 pm »
The new code is done. It seems to be working perfectly and came up with a similar enough build to Turbo's with reasonable results if tested in game. If any of you want to use it by yourselfs, it's in python and it's commented so I assume it's not that hard to operate if you know python.

As it already is, it can be used to test different eco settings, such as what happens to the economy if you change the supply cost. I will improve on it and make it do smarter choices (i hope), as it currently is Heuristic.

Future goals:
- implement duo zerg economy (so we can finally determine how much sharing eco matters)
- calculate a few statistics to extract a few insights, such as moving average growth
- use previous statistics to come up with a better choosing algorithm
     -alternatively use a solver algorithm that tests every single possibility and gives out the best one
- automate or simplify the graph making
- enable a build input and analyser
- start considering army expenses and not only pure economy

If you want to try it and have any questions, feel free to msg me.

6
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Economy Simulator
« on: June 16, 2022, 04:42:35 pm »
I'm back.

I think i know why the simulator's eco growth just plummets after a few minutes, leading to way slower eco groth. My suspicion is that it's because of the tickspeed of the simulation: 1 update/second. I assume as time goes on, a lot of things can happen in between a second and the next, meaning that it has to update more than once every second.

I started working on a new and improved version of the simulator, using more advanced techniques i've learned in the last few monts. I'll keep you updated :D

7
Balance Discussion / Re: What people need to understand about balance.
« on: February 05, 2022, 11:47:09 pm »
I don't even know how to begin...

1. Games don't attract good players, games attract new players and with time they will get good.
2. "Since there is no challange": If you don't think zerg hex is challanging, maybe we're playing different games. Zerg hex has a considerable learning curve both for terran and zerg. If you still feel like you're too good for public lobbies, as they provide you no challange, try playing some clan games with actual good players, you will understand it is challanging.
3. It is true, terran will win every time if the lobby is filled with good players, that's why the community has developed different game modes with different rules to make it balanced.
4. I have friends that like playing on public lobbies and have created accounts only for that. Their identity is secret and they don't use that account when on a party with other good players. Some of them have reached 95%+ winrates. So yeah being "alone" in a public lobby is challanging, but not always it will be impossible.
5. If you don't find fun in public lobbies, you should join community discord groups, like heXnab discord, which is open to public. There you can find people who you can play with.

Or if you want you can keep blaming wmaster for every problem you can find and stay sad in oblivion

8
Balance Discussion / Re: What people need to understand about balance.
« on: February 05, 2022, 01:33:19 am »
I put in quotation marks to make sure i wouldn't distort your words. I'm aware that in pub lobbies most terrans are pretty much useless, but i don't think you can blame that on Wmaster or balance.

9
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Hex Science
« on: February 04, 2022, 09:45:31 pm »
How long does an italis take to pay for itself?

Italis don't use energy to shoot, so in the long run it will save you energy. Considering that it costs 25,000 energy to make it, when does it start to create surplus energy?

Metodology:
I'll compare the italis to different marine stages and different zerg units. I wont consider overkilling units, which is a bigger problem for the italis considering it has higher damage, so consider a margin of error.

In one of the first posts i have calculated the energy efficiency for different marines, different upgrades against different zerg units. I'll use those values.

A. Tier 1 marines with shattering, conservation and penetration against armor 2 target (roaches and big spine): 6 damage per energy outside armory and 8.75 in armory range.
B. Tier 2 marines with shattering, conservation and penetration against armor 2 target (roaches and big spine): 5,625 outside armory and 7.5 in armory range.
C. Tier 2 marines with shattering 1 and 2, conservation 1 and 2 and penetration against armor 2 target (roaches and big spine): 13.125 outside armory and 15.75 in armory range.
D. Tier 2 marines with shattering 1 and 2, conservation 1 and 2 and penetration against armor 7 target (brutalisks): 2.625 outside armory and 2.625 in armory range.
E. Tier 3 marines with shattering 1 and 2, conservation 1 and 2 and penetration against armor 2 target (roaches and big spine): 12.5 outside armory and 13.75 in armory range.
F. Tier 3 marines with shattering 1 and 2, conservation 1 and 2 and penetration against armor 7 target (brutalisks): 6.25 outside armory and 7.5 in armory range.
G. Tier 3 marines with shattering 1 and 2, conservation 1,2 and 3, penetration and elite scope against armor 7 target (brutalisks): 12 outside armory and 14 in armory range.

Now considering that the italis do 32x4 damage with a 1.2s attack speed, the damage per second will be 100 to armor 2 targets and 83.33 to armor 7 targets. Considering the cost of an italis to be 25,000 energy, I'll multiply that by the damage each setup (A to G) would have dealt to figure out how much damage the italis have to deal to be the same as 25,000 energy from that marine. With the damage and the damage per second, it's easy to calculate the seconds (or minutes) it will take to pay for itself.

Results (in minutes):
A. 35.5 and 25
B. 31.3 and 23.4
C. 65.6 and 54.7
D. 13.1 and 13.1
E. 57.3 and 52.1
F. 37.5 and 31.3
G. 70 and 60

I'm very impressed at those numbers, specially considering how much they're favoring the italis - only considering 2 armor or more and not considering overkilling units, which happens way more to italis than marines. This is also considering that italis are shooting non stop, and marines too which doesn't always happen.

Conclusion:
 In general, i don't think getting italis is a big energy saver, as waiting more than 30 minutes for it to just pay for itself might take longer than the game itself. The fastest "debt payment" scenario is vets vs brutalisk and i'll be impressed with only italis can hold brutas for 13 minutes while you still have veterans. It can help you survive, but if you're looking to save energy, there are probably better options.

10
Balance Discussion / Re: What people need to understand about balance.
« on: February 03, 2022, 07:37:28 pm »
It's really not that hard to create two game modes, one for casual play and one for experienced players who want to try hard.  As it is now, casual lobbies are heavily zerg favored because most of the terrans really don't want to try at all to do anything, and try hard lobbies are an absolute slaughter where zerg is dead by 20.

Wmaster needs to make a casual mode where it's much easier for terrans to take and hold 3 gas so they can at least do something, and a pro mode where zerg can eco faster and terrans have to all work together to win.

I guess if "terrans really don't want to try at all to do anything", no different mode can fix that. There is tons of content in the forum, on youtube, etc. to help people improve. I wouldn't blame noob terran's suffering on Wmaster, except for the capacity upgrade problem that has been discussed a lot. As for "pro" lobbies, we came around that problem with clangame rules, which can balance the game out a lot. Maybe adding different game modes could make it more fun for all skill levels though, i just don't see how that would work.

I believe that instead of making different game modes, if the community was more united and the playerbase was bigger, there could be "inhouse" games for all the skill levels, creating lobbies with select people to make it balanced.

11
Balance Discussion / Re: What people need to understand about balance.
« on: February 03, 2022, 05:10:24 pm »
In response to 2nd paragraph:
Relating Zerg Hex to ladder and having GM's vs noobs, etc. There is an issue here.. 2 GM's can beat +10 bronze players in a 2v10 quite easily.

I don't think there is a issue, 10 bronze players can worker rush the 2 gms or do cheese, which is analogue to the capacity upgrade and makes it impossible to hold...

"if there are only 3-4 good terrans on the lobby, good zergs can take them down"
Huh? 4 "pro" terrans will not lose to any zergs. Me, Space, and Naj have taken down the infamous Buggo + Ace duo consistantly in the past with just a 3 stack (the game is currently balanced for a 2v3.5 stack imo), zergs have no chance vs a true 4 stack.

Yeah, that's why i didn't say "pro" terrans, i said "good" xp. Also, i bet that the other terrans weren't completely useless, as Buggo + Ace can win against a true 3 stack or against 4 "good" players.

12
Balance Discussion / What people need to understand about balance.
« on: January 25, 2022, 07:31:59 pm »
I see people complaining a lot about balance in game, in the forum, on discord and pretty much anywhere. People needs to understand that Wmaster's job at balancing the game was very well done and i hope that with this post and comments everyone can understand that. If you disagree, read the whole thing. If you still disagree, you can comment down bellow. I'll also review any balance chages suggestions and mainly point out why they (probably) don't work.

First of all, the biggest challange with Zerg Hex balance is the skill gap between players in a lobby. Try to compare this to ladder, can you make a bronze league have a balanced game against a grand master or even a lower league player like gold? ZHex works similarly: you have inhouse games, in which people have very similar skill level, and you have public lobbies, in which a infinite combination of skills is possible, from a 6 noobs terrans vs 2 noob zergs, to noob terrans good zergs, good terrans bad zergs, one good zerg and a bad one, etc. My point is, it's pretty much impossible to make the game balanced in all of those cenarios. In my opinion, zerg hex can only be truly balanced if all the players in the lobby have similar skill level.

Is zerg too weak? Yes and no.
Zerg can be overpowered on a few ocasions. For instance, a unexperienced zerg when against a 'pro' player, can capacity upgrade all spawners and go for full agression on 1 terran, making it impossible to hold, pretty much no matter the terran's skill. That strategy in a lobby full of noob terrans will work, because there will be no one to punish them. Also, in a noob zerg vs noob terran scenario, the zerg can also have the upper hand, because new terran players struggle a lot handling pressure and specially taking down big spines.
On the other hand, zerg is weak when there are enough experienced terran players in the lobby, no matter what the zerg's skill level is.
Finally, there are a few scenarios in which the game is actually balanced. On normal game rules, if there are only 3-4 good terrans on the lobby, good zergs can take them down. In clangame rules, we figured out some basic rules to make the game also pretty close to balanced - specially because the teams are balanced.

So is the game balanced?
Yes, the game is balanced around a scenario in which there are good and bad players in the lobby, but because the skill difference among players is so big and unpredictable, the specific scenario in which the game is balanced is unlikely to happen.

How can the game be balanced then?
Well, sorry to say this but it can't, not for all the scenarios. There are some very interesting balance changes proposed on Turbo's post (it compiles his suggestions and other people's too) that manage to increase the scenario range in which the game is balanced and playable, but even so, there are a few lobbies in which it won't work, and that's just how it is. And that's how it's supposed to be, there shouldn't be a way for 6 noob terrans beat 2 good zergs or 6 good terrans loose to 2 noob zergs (unless they're trolling). In my opinion, changes that try to expand that "balanced scenario" are the way to go, but the game should be mainly balanced around "pro" meta, just like ladder games. Also, if there was a better ranking system, it would be easier to create balanced teams and therefore a more balanced match/lobby, so maybe thats one way to kind of balance the game, just like ladder games xp.

---------------------------------------------

Discussing actual balance now
Before going down to suggestions that in my opinion won't work, i need to say a few important concepts and maybe a few exemples:

Field of change: every change will affect different parts of the game, I will separate them into main categories
- Economical changes. These are the hardest ones because it will majorly impact the whole game. A small change will affect a lot, as i discussed on one of the "Hex Science" posts. For instance, reducing the zerg's first supply cost by 200 will have a huge impact, because then every supply will be 200 minerals cheaper, so in 10 supplies that's already 2.000 minerals. Besides, as eco grows so fast for the zerg, that can make the eco difference to what it is right now so big, that it breaks the entire game :D
- Unit changes: These generally have less impact on the game, but still, changing a unit can completely shift the meta, wether it is from zerg or terran, so gotta be careful with the consequences of it. For exemple, if you buff roaches, terrans will be encouraged to do way more t1 pushes (armory first), before zerg has eco to get roaches.
- Defensive and offensive value changes: These are the changes that affect the most differently players at each skill level. Lets say you buff the big spine, increasing zerg's defensive value. That probably wont affect most noob terrans as they never push into the big spine anyway or noob zergs, as they usually build all spawners in the front and don't transfuse it anyway, but for high level play, that can change a lot.
- Others. Can't put everything in boxes, exept when there is a "outside the boxes" box xD.

Time of affect: For what period of the game is the change ment for, early game, mid game or lategame?
Well, even though a change can have a main period in which that changes, it will change all of the other ones too. For instance, if you make zerg's early game stronger, you end up affecting midgame too, as the terrans could be weaker in that stage, the zerg's eco might be higher, etc. Also, affecting the lategame, will also change early and midgame too, because players will make different choices knowing that the lategame now works differently.

Non intended consequences: sometimes you want to change something specific, and by doing that, you will break another part of the game by accident. Let's say you nerf terran's lategame to balance that stage of the game and it works, now the zerg has the upper hand on lategame. But with that, you encourage the terran not let the game reach that point, making t1 and t2 pushes relatively stronger by accident. It's a dumb exemple but should be enough to understand.

Ok, now it will be simpler to understand how a balance change will interact with the game. I will review changes if you guys put on the comments - this is a discussion so other people can also help. I might also suggest a few and also analyse them.

At last, i'd like to say again that this is just my opinion and i'm open to discussion and for you guys to prove me wrong :D

PS: Wmaster if you're reading this and you're willing to make balance changes, contact me and i'll gather a team of "pros" to respectfully discuss with you :D

13
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Economy Simulator
« on: November 04, 2021, 04:35:58 pm »
Income time adjustment

How fast does the zerg economy grow? This is a important question, because spending 100 minerals at the start of the game is worth way more than spending 100 minerals in the end of the game. A simple formula to know how fast the economy grows is:

(Income today - Income yesterday)/ Income Yesterday

That will give us in % how much it has grown.

So in my code i did that, but instead of yesterday's income, i used the income growth for a spawner buiding time. That's because spawners have different building time compared to extractors, meaning that in theory spawners should be more expensive, as it takes longer for them to start yielding. So this is the graphic result:

https://imgur.com/vQXzCcg

Turns out that the economy grows a lot in a building time of 1 spawner. The results show that in 25 seconds (the building time of a slowling) the economy can grow 14%!
Then i repeated the process for the building time of a extractor and also added a moving average to make visualization easier:

https://imgur.com/fX4c5jd

The red line represents the moving average for eco growth of 1 extractor building time (20 seconds) and the green is for a slowling (25 seconds)

https://imgur.com/Whh3G1s

Now this is from a roach spawner instead of a zergling. As you can see, the difference grows because it takes 40 seconds for a roach spawner to build.

I'm not sure what happens for the curve to start decreasing, I'll investigate in the near future.

Then I multiplied the spawner true cost by 1 + growth, meaning that the spawners will start costing more than extractors and depending on the spawner, the difference should be huge, right? Well, that's what i expected. Turns out nothing changed.

I really dont understand what happened, I expected some kind of difference, but practically no effect was caused:
https://imgur.com/vwFY7YF
(yes these are 2 different lines)
https://imgur.com/bTLgJZa
(zoomed version)

I'm extremely confused at this point. I'll need to revisit some concepts. If anyone has any idea of what happened feel free to contact me. I guess that's it for today... Cya


14
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Economy Simulator
« on: November 04, 2021, 03:00:09 pm »
Let's speak numbers.

Last post i said the new algorithm performs better in some situations. Let me show you graphics for income per time so you can see the difference yourselfs.

Slowlings on early game old (orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/Ykf48rY
Strikelings on early game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/g0CMSVn
Tanklings on early game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/rTt9aWG
Roaches on ealy game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/GxRKspI

Results show that the new method seems to have the upper hand in some of the spawners on the early game, specially the strikeling.

Slowlings on end game old (orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/hFVNJ2M
Strikelings on end game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/8ARAG17
Tanklings on end game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/ANTWrel
Roaches on end game old(orange) vs new(green)
https://imgur.com/GxRKspI

End game is really terrible on the new algorithm, as discussed in the last post, but aparently for roaches and tanklings it isn't that bad. Probably because as those spawners are "slower" to eco up with, so the difference takes longer to show up. I'm still working on it, I'll keep updating.

15
Builds & Guides / Re: Zerg Hex Science
« on: October 31, 2021, 03:02:05 am »
Walls

In this post I would like to discuss a very underrated topic: walls. Walls are great, they can delay a zerg incoming attack, redirect zerg unit flow and even keep one side or your entire base safe (on one gas and high ground situations). Walls are crazy. But there are a lot of unanswered questions I would like to answer.

Construction Yard:

"Nearby structures take 40% less damage and regenerates slowly"

1. How slow is slowly?
5HP/s
To test this out, i used a few creepers to shoot at a wall inside yard range to see how many it took to start making the HP go down. When you have 5 creepers it's stable, 4 it regenerates and 6 it decreses HP. So, the regeneration rate is equal to the dps of 5 creepers * 60%, because of the 40% damage reduction.

4dmg/1,2seconds, but the wall starts with 2 armor so 2dmg/1,2seconds = 1.667
1.667 * 5 creepers = 8.333
6.667* 60% = 5HP/s

Note that this is a aproximation, the number might be slightly off.

Unified Armor:

"Walls share health with one another to protect the weakest areas"

This is a very interesting upgrade and it works in a misterious way for me. In this post I would like to uncover the mistery.

2. Is there a range for unified armor?
Yes.

To test the "range" of unified armor I used a slowling to attack a row of walls. The wall under attack broke before all of the other walls were with the same HP, so in a way the health is not shared, it works in a different way. When the wall under attack broke, the other ones had the following HP

55, 70, 95, 110, 175, 175, 175...

So in that aspect, the unified armor has a maximum range of 4 walls.

On the other hand, if instead of a low damage zergling you have a high damage unit like a infused roach or a brutalisk, the range can change. For instance, if a unit 1 shots the wall, unified armor does not apply. In a way, saying that the health is shared is false advertisement xD

3. So if the health is not shared, how does it work?
I don't know lol. I cant figure out, seems to work pretty inconsistently so i can't figure it out. I also can't understand the pattern from the last question which appeared (the same exact values) every time i tested it.

Defenders and SCVs:

4. When is it worth it to link the defender?

Defender link: "Transfer 40% of repair rate to nearby structures"

That means that each structure under attack gets 40% of the regen, meaning that its start being worth it when (number of structures * 40%)>100%, which happens at 2.5, so when 3 or more structures are under attack.

Also, if you have unified armor, it is definitely worth it to link the defender, because as discussed previously, the unified armor spreads the dmg to other walls which are going to be healed.

5. How much is the SCV repairing rate? Is it better than a defender?
Aproximately 8HP/sec. If that checks out, means that the SCV has 80% of the repairing rate of a defender.

6. Does SCV repairing rate stack with armor upgrades like the defenders?
Yes. To test this, I used tanklings (they deal true damage) and upgraded the armor a lot. Turns out SCVs started repairing faster with the upgrade. Hard to tell how much, because the game doesn't give numbers, but it is faster.

Other topics

7. How good is a anti-torra wall
8. Is it better to have a bigger wall and more surface area or less walls with less surface area?
9. How many armor upgrades do you need to survive on the high ground for each attack level?

To be continued...

Also, if you have other questions or if you have answers to the unanswered questions you can comment them :)
Questions 3 and 6 haven't been properly answered.

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